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Yeah, I've talked about this with a few folks, and I agree the ST doesn't have much to worry about... for now. But VW knows the game is on... the MkVII GI is due next year and is getting 260hp, which makes you wonder what the Golf R might get? Will it fuel the fire for the Focus RS? That's what I hope. Or if VW lets the R die, will that just encourage Ford to let them Focus RS continue to hibernate and let the focus on Fiesta ST and RS development?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
i dont think we will see a focus rs but def a fesita rs beside the golf r is alrady at 34g's bump up power your going to bump up that price to at least 38,
 

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Yeah, I've talked about this with a few folks, and I agree the ST doesn't have much to worry about... for now. But VW knows the game is on... the MkVII GI is due next year and is getting 260hp, which makes you wonder what the Golf R might get? Will it fuel the fire for the Focus RS? That's what I hope. Or if VW lets the R die, will that just encourage Ford to let them Focus RS continue to hibernate and let the focus on Fiesta ST and RS development?
I am hoping for the RS as well..

I also believe a Fiesta ST would put another nail in the coffin. But it needs to be a 3 door Fiesta ST.
 
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I personally don't see why a 200+hp 3 door Fiesta RS (for example) would necessarily preclude the possibility of a 300+hp 5 door Focus RS. As Ford's new business model absolutely requires that each model it sells to be profitable, the question would be if there is a market for both. That is a tough question, but I personally hope so. When talking with Tanner Foust in Key West about the motorsports applications of the Focus versus the Fiesta, he seemed to think they'd cater to differently, where the Focus' long wheelbase would better for situations of high speed straight line and cornering stability (like road racing and bigger track type stuff), and the short wheelbase of Fiesta would be choice for things benefiting from tight maneuverability and tighter course constraints (autocross, rally, etc.). Since the RS is Ford's motorsports inspired street car, I'm hoping they see the potential for both, especially if the Fiesta RS is a 3 door.
 

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I was so close to buying a GTI last December, but then I decided to wait it out. The R is incredibly expensive for a Golf (but at the same time, it seems like a steal compared to how much it costs in Germany: ~$60,000), meanwhile, the ST seemed like the perfect price.

I don't really care if Ford makes a Fiesta RS or not, I need the space of the Focus, and I'll be happy with the horsepower that it already provides.
 

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The Golf R is a completely different type of car than the ST, and remember, it's built on an old platform.... much in the same way the 2008 R32 was a completely different type of car than the WRX, despite being slower. (Top Gear UK actually compared the R32 to the BMW 1 Series hatch, and Jeremy Clarkson said the R32 was a better car and cheaper, therefore the obvious pick.)

The Golf R would compete with the Focus RS... but again, we're comparing a AWD, refined, quick car to a car built for performance and not comfort. The next generation GTI will compete directly with the ST, and probably continue with the similar pricing structure. I wouldn't be surprised if the next Golf R ends up with 300+ hp, AWD, and the quick shifting 7 speed DSG (which is the current gearbox in Europe on the Golf R and is MUCH quicker than the manual version we have here), which means the Focus RS will have to step its game up to be on par with that.

When it comes to pricing, $34-36k for the Golf R is actually not bad considering it's practically entry level luxury in terms of ride, refinement, quality, etc. I almost bought a R32 over my G35x because of this 2 years ago (ultimately couldn't live with the lack of bluetooth and not-so-attractive looks of the 2008 Golf body). The Focus RS will probably cost in that range as well when loaded up (again, remember the Golf R is basically loaded from the start, with the only option being the navigation/moonroof/something else package). And these cars are developed in and for Europe, where their prices are MUCH higher after conversion rates. The Focus ST does not retail for the equivalent of $25-29k over there, the Golf R is more expensive than $35k there (but they do have a better Golf R there), and the GTI costs more as well. They'll pay for ALL of the extra features they get over us, Americans are notoriously cheap and look at something like the R32 or Golf R and say "I can get a big stupid Mustang with a V8 for the same price! What a rip off!"

It's an uphill battle against the limited brainpower of the average American consumer, and it's one that automakers have been struggling to deal with for years.
 

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Basically wait for the next Golf R to come out before any direct comparisons to the RS, just like you should wait for the new GTI next year before making valid comparisons to the ST. If you're buying a car in the next couple of months though, the ST is by far the best in terms of performance, quality, refinement, ride, and features. Come next year, no one knows if that will be the case when a lighter and more powerful GTI hits dealers.
 

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If the next gen GTI comes in around the same price as the current model, then we'll have some excellent competition in the market place. As a consumer and enthusiast, I'm a fan of market place competition driving manufacturers to give us more for less. As I mentioned elsewhere, I got some second hand information about Ford's development of the 2.3L Ecoboost 4 cyl and an Ecoboost 5 cyl. If Ford wants to step up the ante on the ST, we'll see the 2.3 in the ST to again have the edge on the GTI, especially if the RS gets the 5 cyl to compete with the Golf R. We, the consumer, win either way. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #10
i thought ford was talkign about no focus rs but rather a fesita rs since the festia is more on par with the rally scene??
 

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i thought ford was talkign about no focus rs but rather a fesita rs since the festia is more on par with the rally scene??
They're not going to kill off the Focus RS nameplate after all of the positive press the previous iteration got in Europe. I guarantee you'll see a Fiesta ST and a Focus RS... I highly doubt you'll see a Fiesta RS simply because there's really nothing for it to compete against, implying there's little market for a car like that.
 

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If the next gen GTI comes in around the same price as the current model, then we'll have some excellent competition in the market place. As a consumer and enthusiast, I'm a fan of market place competition driving manufacturers to give us more for less. As I mentioned elsewhere, I got some second hand information about Ford's development of the 2.3L Ecoboost 4 cyl and an Ecoboost 5 cyl. If Ford wants to step up the ante on the ST, we'll see the 2.3 in the ST to again have the edge on the GTI, especially if the RS gets the 5 cyl to compete with the Golf R. We, the consumer, win either way. :)
Agreed.

To be honest, I don't see the 2.3 Ecoboost coming into the ST until the next generation version - Ford isn't going to get into a hp battle on FWD cars, I don't think a 260hp GTI is going to send Ford scrambling. They may just retune the 2.0 Ecoboost to get a few extra hp out of it.

Ford doesn't have a 5 cylinder engine - the old Focus RS used a Volvo T5, and they've stated they're no longer going to source that engine any longer.
 

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Im not a fan of VW however, a $300-$600 reprogram to the MKVI GTI ECU increases HP to 254hp and 303lbs/ft Torque.

My issue is that the GTI is too refined for me. I used to have a couple Audi but I like my fast cars to not be silent in the cabin. That's for old people. I want to hear a car growl and burble and to have more road feel transmitted through the steering wheel and a legit sport suspension making for a stiffer ride and better cornering.

The GTI steering wheel feel numb. It doesn't tell you what your tires around doing. Also, you can't turn off stability control and traction. Meaning every sharp turn you take in the GTI means the car pumps the brakes and you go through brakepads like crazy.
 

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I have a friend with a GTI-R. It's sweet, but a bit...old school. Grown up. I'd consider getting even this year's if the ST wasn't going to make it to dealers by new years.

Butt...I prefer the ST on superficial terms. It looks better. The interior seems more contemporary. It seems to be specifically meant to be fun. The GTI-R is a worthy competitor to the ST, but after all they're just going to sell 5000 of them here in the US. 5000 STs a year would be considered an abject failure, so long after GTI-Rs are sold out, there will be plenty of STs :)
 

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Im not a fan of VW however, a $300-$600 reprogram to the MKVI GTI ECU increases HP to 254hp and 303lbs/ft Torque.

My issue is that the GTI is too refined for me. I used to have a couple Audi but I like my fast cars to not be silent in the cabin. That's for old people. I want to hear a car growl and burble and to have more road feel transmitted through the steering wheel and a legit sport suspension making for a stiffer ride and better cornering.

The GTI steering wheel feel numb. It doesn't tell you what your tires around doing. Also, you can't turn off stability control and traction. Meaning every sharp turn you take in the GTI means the car pumps the brakes and you go through brakepads like crazy.
If steering feel is your thing, then you're going to be massively disappointed with the Focus ST. The GTI, much like the ST, has electric steering, which is significantly more numb than hydraulic steering (used in cars like the e90 BMW 3 series, which is lauded for it's steering feel). In fact, the reviews so far have mentioned how the ST lacks steering feel...
 

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Now that the Focus ST has arrived, I think the biggest battle VW is going to face is one of price/value. VW never looked at the Mazdaspeed 3 as a real competitor to its GTI line. However, the ST does represent a true competitor; VW realizes they have to ramp up the performance of the GTI, which is why the Mk VIII will get 260 HP and a lighter chassis. Who knows what the Euro/Dollar conversion rate will be a year from now, but producing the VW in Europe could present pricing problems for VW. I wouldn't be surprised to see the next generation GTI come in with a base price in the $28-30K arena. Will buyers be willing to pay a premium over the ST to get the supposedly "refined" performance that the GTI is noted for?

Should be interesting to see what VW ends up doing. But producing a car in Europe is inherently costly - and to the best of my knowledge VW has no plans to produce Golfs/GTI's in its Chattanooga assembly plant.
 
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