[tomzi1234]

my brother just had same issue with hid WV 2.0 TSI. so he was speaking with technical support in WV.
they said its technical issue of all direct injected cars. it has nothing to do with catch can whatso ever.
before direct injection, gasoline was injected in mainfold, and gasoline is solvent for carbon. that's why the valves ware clean.
now that gasoline is injected directly they have no cleanin, and carbon is build up.
the newest generation of their's TSI have twin injectors. one small part is injected in mainfold for cleaning purpose and rest direct.
and those newest generation dont have those problems any more. all the rest does.

so we dont have that. that means, with different gasoline, different driving style oil catch can, they can bring 1% difference, but carbon will build up sooner or later.
but it doesnt have anything to do with catch can.

 

[t4thfavor]

Except that carbon does not manifest out of thin air... So if you have a catch can, the oil will not be present to get burned, and create the carbon. I think he's just trying to ease your brothers troubled mind by telling him stories about how there's nothing he can do to save his precious little VW other than bring it in for $500-700 in maintenance every other year.

my brother just had same issue with hid WV 2.0 TSI. so he was speaking with technical support in WV.
they said its technical issue of all direct injected cars. it has nothing to do with catch can whatso ever.
before direct injection, gasoline was injected in mainfold, and gasoline is solvent for carbon. that's why the valves ware clean.
now that gasoline is injected directly they have no cleanin, and carbon is build up.
the newest generation of their's TSI have twin injectors. one small part is injected in mainfold for cleaning purpose and rest direct.
and those newest generation dont have those problems any more. all the rest does.

so we dont have that. that means, with different gasoline, different driving style oil catch can, they can bring 1% difference, but carbon will build up sooner or later.
but it doesnt have anything to do with catch can.

 

[tomzi1234]

sorry you are right. thank you for correcting me.
it is motor vapor, that causes carbon build up. so catch can will help. but not eliminate the problem 100%.

the second part is still right. that is manufacturer error, and newer generations have second injector to inject part of fuel in intake, to clean that oil.

 

[t4thfavor]

Then it would be direct/indirect injection at which point I'd be worried about detonation under high boost, and high temperature because fuel is being sprayed into the cylinder before the compression stroke (giving it time to get hot and angry). I'm sure the engineers have figured that out though.

Either way, the MK3 Focus has sold more units than any other car in the world... So this is going to be huge in 2-3 years especially with the thinner 5w20 oil that the NA cars run, and the high boost pressure that the ST's run at.

 

[torvald]

Yeah, as mentioned earlier, I checked my 2.0 liter ecoboost engine with a scope through the manifold and it was pretty bad at 25000 miles. My local ford mechanic says he's seen quite a few of the ecoboost truck engines with significant carbon build up. Seems weird that this has gotten no notice in the press. I recently installed the rx performance catch can. It seems to collect about 1 ounce of oil stuff every 800 miles or so. At about 5000 miles from now I'll run my scope in again and post the result. I had the walnut blast just before putting on the catch can so this should be a good test case.

 

[tomzi1234]

i am looking forward to see the results.

 

[zulujams]

Anyone know if the new RS coming out will have twin injectors or other solution to this? If so, I could add that to my list of reasons for an upgrade next year which will likely still be shot down by my better half. I suppose Ford ESP would not cover carbon buildup--it would be considered wear and tear?

 

[t4thfavor]

I highly doubt that Ford put any "serious" engineering into the engine beyond what is already available in the Mustang that carries the same engine. I did hear that there is 1-2 minor differences in cooling, and intake, and that it has a twin scroll turbo instead of a single scroll. Nothing in the press releases about more injectors, as Ford hasn't even publicly stated there's an issue.

Anyone know if the new RS coming out will have twin injectors or other solution to this? If so, I could add that to my list of reasons for an upgrade next year which will likely still be shot down by my better half. I suppose Ford ESP would not cover carbon buildup--it would be considered wear and tear?

 

[MK3 ST3]

I highly doubt that Ford put any "serious" engineering into the engine beyond what is already available in the Mustang that carries the same engine. I did hear that there is 1-2 minor differences in cooling, and intake, and that it has a twin scroll turbo instead of a single scroll. Nothing in the press releases about more injectors, as Ford hasn't even publicly stated there's an issue.

I don't think there is consensus within the engineering community that it even is an issue. BMW so far is the only one who has had to do a campaign on anything related to this.

The carbon buildup while it may not be ideal may pose no long term problem. I think at this point there is a lot of arm chair engineering and not a lot of data.

Frankly I'm not worried about my car.

 

[t4thfavor]

...
Frankly I'm not worried about my car.

I have 66,200 miles, and have no issues at all. So really, I'm only worried because I want to drive this car to 300k.

 

[zulujams]

Thanks for the replies. Under certain conditions it could be a big deal but hard to say and data is spotty at best. One unofficial source mentioned something about a recommended carbon cleaning at around 100K mi for one of the German autos. That doesn't sound terrible to me though we'd all like to keep that cash in our pockets.

I'll likely keep the ST for at least a few more years, but the RS would be a blast. I'd need to justify the price tag to gain AWD and more fun for what would be a daily commuter. The math doesn't add up really, but then again we're not driving hybrids or Yarises or whatever...happy driving and ownership all!

 

[torvald]

I have 66,200 miles, and have no issues at all. So really, I'm only worried because I want to drive this car to 300k.

go to minute 16:13 for this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Uh3wEoNiM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2coF9M6F_8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8RzzwISkTA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK2eXdaydqI

 

[wycedriver]

Just an update on my 2013 ST3. At about 20,000 miles I started using the BG and Bardahl GDI kits to help alleviate the carbon buildup. I pulled plugs and put a bore scope into the cylinders and checked the valves. There was indeed carbon buildup on the back sides of the valves and on the faces of the pistons at all 4 cylinders. I currently have 75,000 on the fully stock engine and can report that these GDI Kits are useless. I have been running exclusively premium Shell fuel since day 1. I drive 60 miles a day on the highway with very little city driving. I now have more buildup commensurate with the mileage on the engine. I was warned about this by my #1 tech at our shop. We specialize in European vehicles but work on everything. This is an inherent problem with GDI. We see tons of German gars with the carboned up valves and intake manifolds. We do not generally use Sea Foam on anything turbocharged but we have utilized it for older, non GDI, non computer controlled engines. We have in the past used induction system cleaners from BG and Bardahl, but not on turbocharged engines. We do the walnut blasting on BMWs, Audi's and VW's with good success. My conundrum is do I try the BG induction system cleaner (no charge from the rep) and risk damage to the turbo vanes? Has anyone else tried any other non Sea Foam aftermarket products? Do I just pull the intake and do the walnut blasting? Any thoughts?

 

[zulujams]

Hi Gregg, and thanks for the info. I cannot answer your questions but do have some questions for you. Do you notice a significant change in performance? If so, is it with a butt dyno or on a dyno machine of some kind? Do you have an extended warranty? I wonder if a treatment would void the warranty for the engine components. You have 75K on the car...what do you think your goal is? Keep it as your daily driver to 100K? More? Use it as a secondary/fun car in the near future? It sounds like you have some options such as the walnut treatment, maybe at cost without labor charges based on where you work, but is the buildup noticed worth addressing? Some drivers want the most out of their cars for as long as possible, so it may be worth it to you. I personally enjoy my ST as a daily driver and mix in motorcycle commuting as much as I can (weather dependent). I'm far behind you with only about 23K miles, and overall I'm not worried about carbon buildup, but more data and time may change that. I'm torn between keeping this car a lot longer (lower taxes, fun car), but maintenance will start creeping up. I dream of an RS but have many priorities for cash. Ask yourself how long you'll keep yours and what you need from it. Let us know what you do, and any pics would be great! Maybe others have experience with Sea Foam and walnut blasting to share.

 

[torvald]

I did the walnut blast.

Just an update on my 2013 ST3. At about 20,000 miles I started using the BG and Bardahl GDI kits to help alleviate the carbon buildup. I pulled plugs and put a bore scope into the cylinders and checked the valves. There was indeed carbon buildup on the back sides of the valves and on the faces of the pistons at all 4 cylinders. I currently have 75,000 on the fully stock engine and can report that these GDI Kits are useless. I have been running exclusively premium Shell fuel since day 1. I drive 60 miles a day on the highway with very little city driving. I now have more buildup commensurate with the mileage on the engine. I was warned about this by my #1 tech at our shop. We specialize in European vehicles but work on everything. This is an inherent problem with GDI. We see tons of German gars with the carboned up valves and intake manifolds. We do not generally use Sea Foam on anything turbocharged but we have utilized it for older, non GDI, non computer controlled engines. We have in the past used induction system cleaners from BG and Bardahl, but not on turbocharged engines. We do the walnut blasting on BMWs, Audi's and VW's with good success. My conundrum is do I try the BG induction system cleaner (no charge from the rep) and risk damage to the turbo vanes? Has anyone else tried any other non Sea Foam aftermarket products? Do I just pull the intake and do the walnut blasting? Any thoughts?

At 25000 miles I used a scope going in through the symposer on the manifold and found substantial carbon build up (see previous posts). I had the walnut blast done by a local german auto repair shop done as they have the equipment and are experienced cleaning up audis with this problem. The procedure cost $400 and is pretty painless. I have also installed an RX catch can. At just under 40000 miles I again used a scope and found that the carbon is returning though it is not bad yet. I'm guessing that if a guy is meticulous and keeps the ecoboost for a long time that they will do a walnut blast anywhere from every 25k to 50k miles.

 

[torvald]

Picture and comment on RX Performance Catch Can

I just did an oil change at 40,000 miles. After 5,000 miles the RX Performance catch can caught about 4 1/2 ounces of sludge.

 

[TurboHeart]

So I know this is probably a dumb question but what exactly causes the carbon buildup and why/how does a catch can help the issue? Also is the RX Performance catch can the best option for catch cans?

 

[torvald]

So I know this is probably a dumb question but what exactly causes the carbon buildup and why/how does a catch can help the issue? Also is the RX Performance catch can the best option for catch cans?

With piston engines fumes from combustion and oil are present in the crankcase of the engine. Under some conditions such as high turbo boost the pressure inside the crankcase can exceed pressure of the atmosphere. Because of pollution regulation it is forbidden to allow the crankcase fumes to be released into the atmosphere so instead the fumes are routed into the intake track of the engine. This is controlled by a positive crankcase valve also known as a PCV. When the crankcase has positive pressure the PCV allows the pressure to be vented into the intake track. This means that air containing combustion residue and oil fumes are sucked into the cylinder and burned along with the air and gasoline mixture. With older engine designs the gasoline was mixed into the intake port either with a carburetor or by a port injector and had a natural side effect of washing the crankcase fumes off of the intake valve. Direct injection however, bypasses the intake port and directly injects into the cylinder and so no gasoline is present in the intake port and so does not clean the back of the valve. In this situation the dirty crankcase fumes pass over the back of the intake valve and a small amount of the fumes burn to the valve stem and the back of the valve face. If you google a bit more you will find postings that show what this looks like.

 

[MK3 ST3]

I guess at 100k I'll need to walnut blast the intake if I plan on keeping the car. Oh well.

 

[torvald]

I guess at 100k I'll need to walnut blast the intake if I plan on keeping the car. Oh well.

By 100,000 miles I think you will find quite a bit of build up. What is interesting though is that while many people are posting that they are observing the build up, they are not very often posting that they are having problems. So generally this seems to be pretty benign. My Ford mechanic did say that the more catastrophic possibility is where a large chunk of carbon breaks loose from a valve and then makes it's way to the turbine and wrecks the blades.

It seems that everyone is going to direct injection, even my wife's new econobox Nissan has a 1.6 liter GDI engine. It will be interesting to find out if these new engines have solved the problem.

Here are some links that were posted earlier:

go to minute 16:13 for this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Uh3wEoNiM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2coF9M6F_8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8RzzwISkTA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK2eXdaydqI