[ATX Eric]

Anyone at one of the driving events able to sneak out of TC hell and find out if the rear bar is worth a damn?

Looks to be 22mm and solid (non-tubular), which is pretty stout for a factory bar. I'll find out soon enough on my own, but curious about trailing throttle oversteer capabilities from the factory. :!:

 

[jthj]

I think I recall one of the reviews using the term railroad tie to describe the RSB. I take that to mean it's pretty stiff.

 

[ATX Eric]

I think I recall one of the reviews using the term railroad tie to describe the RSB. I take that to mean it's pretty stiff.

Certainly 22mm is substantial from stock. I think the last aftermarket bar I installed (some years ago) was about that thickness.

Of course, I managed to shear that one in half, but that's another story.

 

[Rev.Hammer]

That sound quite ample BUT I am sure that someone will make one BIGGER! AHAHAHA!

 

[focusownerskid]

22mm.

Car is plenty tossable as it sits.

- Drew

 

[edudleson]

The ST supplemental guide says it is a 22mm but does not state if it is hollow or solid. It did say the front one is hollow but can't remember the size.

 

[ATX Eric]

The ST supplemental guide says it is a 22mm but does not state if it is hollow or solid. It did say the front one is hollow but can't remember the size.

Front is 24mm. And due to the lack of mention of it (the rear) being tubular, I'm 99% sure it's solid.

 

[Neverlift]

I would bet that removal of the FSB altogether would be highly beneficial, not only from a rotational standpoint, but also make life easier on the e-lsd thanks to that 22mm RSB.

 

[higgrit]

I would bet that removal of the FSB altogether would be highly beneficial, not only from a rotational standpoint, but also make life easier on the e-lsd thanks to that 22mm RSB.

Ya I prefer body roll and understeer like a 94 Crown Vic.

 

[ATX Eric]

Ya I prefer body roll and understeer like a 94 Crown Vic.

No. He may be right in certain circumstances. Can definitely help with rotation. Might be especially handy in autoX.

 

[higgrit]

No. He may be right in certain circumstances. Can definitely help with rotation. Might be especially handy in autoX.

What are the circumstances? Error correction while turning and high speed turning? I will mention, most production cars are designed with understeer because of the ease of error correction. To further change the balance of the car to have even more understeer would be driver preference and how you drive a car. For me in a FWD car I'd want to be as close to balanced OS/US as possible because it preforms better in tight undulating roads/circuits. I would rather sacrifice power before the apex than after, for a quicker exit. If my car is pointing in the right direction at the apex it's insta-throttle and not having to wait for the back end. But that is just my preference.

 

[ATX Eric]

What are the circumstances? Error correction while turning and high speed turning? I will mention, most production cars are designed with understeer because of the ease of error correction. To further change the balance of the car to have even more understeer would be driver preference and how you drive a car. For me in a FWD car I'd want to be as close to balanced OS/US as possible because it preforms better in tight undulating roads/circuits. I would rather sacrifice power before the apex than after, for a quicker exit. If my car is pointing in the right direction at the apex it's insta-throttle and not having to wait for the back end. But that is just my preference.

If you remove the FRONT sway, you're going to get OVERSTEER, which is what he was going for, AFAIK. Its going to give you much better rotation in extremely tight courses (or on dirt or gravel, I suppose).

Getting pointed in the right direction actually allows you to get on the throttle earlier, which allows for a faster exit speed.

Now there are diminishing returns at some point. And in reality, you're better off having a well-balanced car that systematically controls for understeer in the long run. Trailing throttle oversteer is often NOT the fastest way around a corner (although its a TON of fun).

But in a really tight autoX or off road, if you just want to be able to get the car to rotate, removing the front sway is an age-old "technique".

 

[higgrit]

Isn't it removing the rear sway increases oversteer and removing front increases understeer? This is a generalization of course as there are many more dependencies associated to the suspension setup. I am unfamiliar on how fast AutoX'ing is as far as speed but in higher speed corners I can see removing the front sway to be beneficial, in lower speed cornering (all this being relative to car setup) keeping your front sway so you don't plow corners. And that's why there is always free practice for race weekends to tune suspension to fit your needs.

 

[ATX Eric]

Isn't it removing the rear sway increases oversteer and removing front increases understeer? This is a generalization of course as there are many more dependencies associated to the suspension setup. I am unfamiliar on how fast AutoX'ing is as far as speed but in higher speed corners I can see removing the front sway to be beneficial, in lower speed cornering (all this being relative to car setup) keeping your front sway so you don't plow corners. And that's why there is always free practice for race weekends to tune suspension to fit your needs.

Nope. Other way around. Your pivot point, so to speak, is going to be on the end with more rigidity, all else being equal. I'm not a physicist, so I couldn't tell you the scientific explanation. Kind of a fulcrum effect (I'm sure I sound like an idiot to a physics expert).

Stiffer rear end, regardless of drive wheels = oversteer
Stiffer front end = understeer

That's why one of the first mods many FWD and AWD car owners do if they care about handling is a larger/stiffer rear sway bar.

 

[higgrit]

So a thicker rear sway in proportion to front increases oversteer. Got it. I was thinking backwards

I'm more familiar about aerodynamic handling of suspension than mechanical.

 

[ATX Eric]

You got it.

But since you understand the general concept, all you have to do is flip it "in your brain" and you're set.

I literally remembered it the same way as you when I first started trying to figure it all out. At the time via autoX. Was fun. Had a great time. Hope you do to. Looks like this'll be quite a different experience than your current car!

 

[higgrit]

Indeed, my car is pretty much a boat. OH THE BODY ROLL!!!

 

[Neverlift]

Body roll isn't necessarily a bad thing either. With McPherson suspension though, like on the ST, you will not get any camber gain while cornering... but with regards to your Camary, it will allow for more grip under cornering. They still used double wishbone in '95, right?

 

[higgrit]

Body roll isn't necessarily a bad thing either. With McPherson suspension though, like on the ST, you will not get any camber gain while cornering... but with regards to your Camary, it will allow for more grip under cornering. They still used double wishbone in '95, right?

Don't know, don't care honestly. But the struts have never been replaced so the roll is excessive. I do know the limit until i can get the fronts to slip but any normal car it would do the same turn same speed with ease.

 

[Neverlift]

Remove your front sway bar. You will enjoy the result, I promise.