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Discussion Starter #1
I know this is an area that has been beaten to death, but how is it there are still people who consider the BRZ a "better" vehicle? The ST has beaten the BRZ in all areas that a driver would be using the vehicle to do. Can anyone chime in and make me smarter?
 

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Went to a bar the other night. Bouncer noticed my ST lanyard and asked about it. Said he went with an FR-S though, because it's RWD.
I didn't have the heart to say that the ST is faster in a straight line, and still gets sideways through the turns, with 5 seats, a useful trunk, and more upgrading possibilities to boot.
I just said "ah, nice choice, that's a very fun car" (hey, I wanted to go in).
It is, I just think it sacrifices WAY too much.
No real rear seats, no room.
Difficult to service/upgrade due to cramped engine bay.
Tough to add power to.
Just shy of having enough power.

Is it still a good car? Of course, it stuck to what's important, being fun to drive. But it could have been better. With more power, the lack of space wouldn't be such a big deal, but without...
Well, someone can pull up the review where the ST bested a BRZ around a track by a second, with comfort, 5 seats, great in snow, and plenty of space in the trunk.

Of course, for those who just want a Miata that isn't a Miata... Well, here's the Toyotaburu twins.
 

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Friend of mine traded his E39 M5 in on a new Subarota. Thing is, the FR-S he bought was over $27k after the dealer installed aftermarket leather. And when he told me that...it was all I could do not to choke on my drink. I can't argue driving dynamic - I think they're totally different, and you pick the one you want. But for someone's only car? I can't pay $27k for the itsy bitsy FR-S. Besides, I've driven cars with no torque all my life, and I'm not interested in that anymore.

I think it's yet to be seen how upgradable the Toyobaru is. After all, the ST is probably not going to be the easy platform that the MS3 has been. But isn't someone working on a turbo kit for the FR-S/BR-Z? I don't know what that would add to the price, but if you added some more power, you might really have something in that platform.
 

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Heard the compression was high, and the engine bay is cramped. Going to be difficult to add power.
But for a car that's only used for a fun drive, a bit more power would make it an amazing car. For utility though, not very useful.
But, that's from a hot hatch fan who likes having a jack of all trades.
 

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It's a slightly bigger, slightly faster Miata. The Miata sells in the mid-to-upper $20ks, and so does the BRZ/FRS. Not everyone needs the utility of a hatchback, and lots of people prefer the feel of a RWD car where the driver sits lower to the ground. Feel is a big thing - it's why old 3-series BMWs have legendary status even though they aren't the fastest cars available.

Also there's the blend-in hatchback vs small sports car/coupe image to factor in.
 

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In my opinion the ST is better stock for stock in EVERY category except for exterior styling. I test drove the FRS multiple times and almost pulled the trigger but decided to wait for the ST (which wound up taking 3 months longer than it should have...)

The car is a DOG down low. There is a serious torque dip. The stock tires are shitty. It has a 12.5:1 compression ratio so forget about adding a turbo unless you want to rip the engine apart.

I was super excited about the FRS/BRZ but SERIOUSLY let down when I test drove it. They did let me go off on my own so I got to test the handling on an onramp (which was nice). Also the Toyota sales people were awful (at the 4 different dealerships I went to).

I guess the biggest thing is that I was coming from a 2003 mazdaspeed protege which was a similar concept to the FRS/BRZ (in the sense that is it super lightweight daily driver, designed to handle well). The statistics were nearly identical in terms of 0-60, handling, mileage, etc...so what was the point of putting myself in debt? I would have rather slapped coilovers on the mazda and upped the boost until it blew up (which I probably should have done for shits and giggles anyways).
 

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They are completely different cars. What the BRZ has which is a major advantage is it is RWD and much lighter. Due to safety and other amenities, it is virtually impossible to find a car sub 3000# let alone the cars of just 15-20 years ago which were close to 2000#. The BRZ has it's virtues but offers less than the ST.
 

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It's an apples-to-oranges comparison, and I can't understand why anyone would be cross-shopping them or looking for bragging rights among the two. Both cars are monster handlers, but the Toyobaru achieves this more naturally (due, of course, to its balance and RWD), while the ST has to rely on all sorts of electronic trickery to compensate for its FWD - and all its power.

Obviously, the ST is more exhilarating in its power delivery, and far more practical for a number of uses - indeed, it's the car that far better suits my needs (and would be PERFECT for me in its Euro-only wagon form). So all that might make it "better." (Although if I were still a single guy with no kids and no tendency to haul friends or gear around, the ST might not be the clear choice between the two.)

On the other hand, I'd bet (sadly) that the Toyobarus are far better screwed together and will prove more reliable (thanks both to being built in Japan and to the absence of all the "technology" in the ST). So that might make THEM "better."

In any event, I haven't seen universal proof of the ST beating the Toyobarus "in all areas that a driver would be using the vehicle to do." On paper, I could say the same thing about the ST vs. my SVT - but I'd bet the SVT has more "soul."
 

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There is already a turbo kit out for these cars. It is relatively low boost about 6 psi if I recall the article correctly and bumps the power to around 250 HP.
 

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To me it would basically be for the same reason I sold my '06 STi for my '08 S2000 CR. I missed the "feel" that you get when you drive a low to the ground, driver focused, RWD car (I'd say roadster too but I'm trying to compare to the BRZ/FR-S). My STi was faster in the straights and in the corners it was fast, but in a different kind of way. You had to more or less throw the car around in turns to make it work whereas the S2000 was all about precision. I can go on and on listing reasons and explaining but I think that sums it up.

I think that's the biggest reason someone would consider a BRZ/FR-S. By today's standards the horsepower and torque may not really be super impressive, but lets be honest... it wasn't that long ago that a car with 200hp/151tq was still viewed as fun/sporty, especially when you factor in the low 2750lb curb weight. It's hard to find a good affordable driver's car anymore without all the electronic aids and assists. That raw feeling you get between driver and car, something only real enthusiasts can appreciate... I think that's why people would get one. It's not going to win any drag races but it's just plain fun to drive.

Edit: I was actually considering a BRZ, ST, and WRX for my next DD. The only reason the BRZ was scratched off was because I already have a car that does the same things it does... but better. Additionally, since the car would be a DD I wanted to have something with more torque for around town and the BRZ is a little light in that department. Probably something I could live with, but I know I'd have regrets.
 

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I had a deposit down for a white Toyota 86 a couple months back, but while waiting for it to be made in Japan I test drove the ST.

I love both cars but for very different reasons, the 86 is a driving purists car, it's rear wheel drive, has wonderful handling. excellent balance, gorgeous styling and a high revving NA motor. The Focus has more power, is very comfortable, far more practical and handles quite well for a FWD hot hatch.

In the end I chose the Focus as a comfortable/practical daily driver made more sense, I already have an MX5 as a weekend/track car and I couldn't really justify having two impractical sports cars.

In my opinion your can't go wrong with either car, they're both great... but for different reasons.
 

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I agree its apples and oranges. I will be buying an ST as it is the obvious choice for those with a wife and kid. BRZ....not so much, not that its a bad car. It is what it is-a 2 seat roadster.
 

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There is already a turbo kit out for these cars. It is relatively low boost about 6 psi if I recall the article correctly and bumps the power to around 250 HP.
That right there would probably make the OP's question moot - for the OP, at least.
 

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On the other hand, I'd bet (sadly) that the Toyobarus are far better screwed together and will prove more reliable (thanks both to being built in Japan and to the absence of all the "technology" in the ST). So that might make THEM "better."
A buddy of mine has one and he's had his fair share of issues. In particular a bad weld that caused clunking noises over bumps. He hasn't had CEL issues but he told me on the board he's on quite a few are.

He still loves the car though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 

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That low to the ground, roadster feeling, is something the BRZ has over the ST, and it'd be a lot of fun, but not as my only car.
 

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^^: "From the artificial steering to the piped-in engine noise, the Focus is definitely built for the video-game generation who may not know or appreciate what a true sports car feels like. We hope they can give the lower horsepower and less flashy Subaru a chance and discover what it's like to connect with a car."

Whoa.
 

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Yeah, what I take from that article is that they are 2 different cars. Which is obvious. We all bought STs for the reasons we've listed.

But they can video-game-generation this and can't-appreciate-true-genius that...I'm going to take that faster ST lap time to bed with me tonight.
 
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